People

Maeve
The Dragon & Game Designer
Posts: 15536
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:29 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Post by Maeve »

Oh, I need to include this in my princess collection, for sure!
[i][b][color=orange][size=92]Smile and carry a big stick.[/color][/b][/i][/size]
Syra
The Chocolate Game Designer
Posts: 2252
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:28 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Post by Syra »

Hmm warm :)
[size=75]Chocolate is not an addiction, it is a way of life.

Avatar by LC!
[/size]
User avatar
Finley Ward
Retired staff
Posts: 1389
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:13 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Finley Ward »

Image

Morgan. :D
Morg
Moderator
Posts: 2224
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:05 pm
Location: UoM/UK

Post by Morg »

This. is. so. awesome.
[size=84][i]"She told me I had too much to dream last night..."[/i] - [i]Apprentice of the Universe[/i], Pure Reason Revolution
Avatar by [url=http://pixieface.deviantart.com]Liz Green[/url][/size]
Gwayne of Vendeling
Tazlure Supporter
Posts: 856
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: Roque (In trouble) / Singapore (in trouble)
Contact:

Post by Gwayne of Vendeling »

uh wow....
The Goddess is at my side, until she decides to leave me...

Posting on possible days Avatar from our lady Finley.. a mistress of capturing dreams and nightmares in word and pictures.
http://pixieface.deviantart.com/
Turi
Special Branch
Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:28 am

Post by Turi »

Maaaaan. You nailed him flat. Wow.
[size=75][i][b]"If it were clear in my mind, I should have no incentive or need to write about it. We do not write in order to be understood; we write in order to understand." -C. Day-Lewis[/b][/i]

Avatar by enayla at allavatars.com[/size]
Craghley
Moderator
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:15 pm
Location: Australia

Post by Craghley »

Now I see why so many people have awesome avatars here.
*kowtows to Finley*
User avatar
Finley Ward
Retired staff
Posts: 1389
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:13 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Finley Ward »

Aster Lu'ulnen. :)

Image

Leon Crowley...

Image
Last edited by Finley Ward on Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yelena Kintessia
Civus
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:13 am
Location: The Citadel / US

Post by Yelena Kintessia »

*_*~ So... Awesome...
User avatar
Finley Ward
Retired staff
Posts: 1389
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:13 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Finley Ward »

Beccaface. :D

Image
Turi
Special Branch
Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:28 am

Post by Turi »

Oh, she looks so grown up in this one...
[size=75][i][b]"If it were clear in my mind, I should have no incentive or need to write about it. We do not write in order to be understood; we write in order to understand." -C. Day-Lewis[/b][/i]

Avatar by enayla at allavatars.com[/size]
Keaira Morgandy
Tazlure Supporter
Posts: 356
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:16 am
Location: Citadel

Post by Keaira Morgandy »

(Moved. :) )
Last edited by Keaira Morgandy on Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
[size=75]'All things truly wicked start from an innocence.'
-- [i]Ernest Hemingway[/i][/size]
Grey Wolf
Furry Game Designer
Posts: 2742
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:58 am

Post by Grey Wolf »

I notice a definite change in style here, Liz. A bit more details in these than before. I do love Becca's new avatar. The hair and hint of ear make it look very real. I love the way shadow is created.
The diplomacy is the art of saying "Good dog", while you are searching for a big rock.
User avatar
Finley Ward
Retired staff
Posts: 1389
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:13 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Finley Ward »

*nods to the Wolf* Yeah, I've been working at it these last few years. Switched drawing program from my beloved shareware (or is it freeware? matters not) Open Canvas 1.1, which produces very smooth results, to Corel Painter XI, which is capable of much much more texture, which I appreciate. Though I pretty much only use one Painter brush - 'smeary palette knife'. Probably should branch out, at some point.

As for details... I guess it's just stuff I've picked up along the way. As my art tutor back in college said, very wisely (and I appreciate this more and more as I get older), art is all about learning to see. Not about what you think you see, or what you've learned from translating the world around you into simplified, iconic ideas that are easy to think about and store and share, but what is actually there, how it actually appears and works and fits together, and how and why it changes when it moves. And also, importantly, how that relates to what you (and everyone else) translates, the icons we all use every day to simply the complexity of what actually exists - how you can use that to show what is there, and what is expected to be there. And how much of that you actually need to show, or simplify, or omit (and that's an incredibly broad field which all artists everywhere have been exploring for as long as art has existed, hurray).

The example that springs to mind is a tree. If I ask anyone at all to think of a tree, then what you think of is an iconic general tree. It might even be the lollipop tree you drew when you were a kid - a brown stick with a green cloud on top. It might be more complex, and actually have leaves. But it's a basic "tree"; archetypal, without genus or history or specifics. It's probably green, and you probably couldn't tell me (unless I pressed you) what kind of bark it had, or if it produced fruit, or how deep its roots are, or where it lives, or anything.

And what you think if you want to draw a tree, (and understand a tree - for the sake of argument the same thing), is (should be, isn't always - art's a learning experience and everyone starts in completely the wrong place) completely different from that. There's 'tree' as concept - the overall tree feeling you want to express, which is a vague thing encompassing an entire broad category (everything you can call 'tree'), and can be implied by triggering all the right impulses in the viewer - by expressing certain iconic aspects of 'tree' general. And then there's knowing exactly how light reflects off bark that's smooth, or rough, and what shape that bark is, and why, and how the leaves are - shape, texture, luminosity, density, and how that all affects everything around the tree, and what might live on that particular tree (and how) - moss, flowers, vines, birds, insects - and more, how a tree works, exactly, and about a bazillion other things you could or might know about a tree, a very specific tree. And not even taking into account the fact that everything else in your 'tree' drawing (sky, light, ground, everything) is going to affect your tree in some way, so repeat all the steps above for 'tree', with absolutely everything else in the drawing.

And then you gotta draw a line between which of that information you need, and which you don't, assuming you know everything there is to know about this specific individual tree (different from all other trees everywhere), which you don't and never will. And all of this suffering the disability of being fundamentally human and thus cursed to accidentally simplify the individual complex 'tree' specimen into the vague mass 'tree' icon, unless you're incredibly incredibly careful not to. (This is why life drawing is so important).

Every artist everywhere first draws the iconic tree - the tree they already know. Even if they're sitting in front of an actual specific tree trying to draw it and no other, what they draw is an icon, a general tree based on what they know is 'tree'. Step two is to learn and draw the actual tree - the tree they don't know. Step three is the hard bit - learning which bits you need and want.

And that's just a tree. It's the same for pretty much every object ever. Another good example is glass (or for that matter, water). Both appear to be completely clear, but if I only draw completely clear you ain't gonna be seeing any glass in my drawing. I've got a lot more to learn about specifics before 'glass' makes sense to your eyes, and then what you see, in your mind, is simplified to 'clear'. Even though it's not.

And... etc etc. I'm lecturing. Sorry. I'll stop - I don't want to bore anyone, but I fear I've bored everyone! :)

I've still lots to learn, though - and probably always will have. I'm still a long way from where I intend to be - and probably always will be. I'm not certain I'll ever get 'there', to a position where I feel finally happy and that I've learned everything - or if I even want to, if it's possible, which I doubt.

's fun though. Usually. ;)
Last edited by Finley Ward on Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
Kaelara Mentahn
Shopkeeper
Posts: 334
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:12 pm
Location: USA

Post by Kaelara Mentahn »

*Drinking all the advice/thoughts in*

While I've always kind of looked at a scene, wondering how I might describe it, the last few weeks I've been imagining how I would draw it... and getting a bit overwhelmed by the complexity. So what you're saying really does make a lot of sense, good thoughts to ponder.

Where -is- a good place to start? I don't want to completely just run away with your thread, but you mention above that beginners generally reach to grasp the more complex things too soon -- I find that my personality of perfectionism might be a big barrier to me ever completely succeeding with capturing what I see or imagine on paper. I don't like being defeated so easily, so I'm trying to figure out how to train my eyes and fingers to communicate a little better without my head always getting so much in the way. lol. I hope that makes sense....
Avatar courtesy of www.allavatars.com - Electra
User avatar
Finley Ward
Retired staff
Posts: 1389
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:13 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Finley Ward »

A good place to start? Hmm. The thing about art is, there probably isn't a 'starting point', (or for that matter an end), so what I'm going to say might seem a little unhelpful... but let me use my tree example a little more.

This is a tree:

Image

And this is also a tree:

Image

And so is this:

Image

(Although, more specifically, this last one is an olive tree).

However, as Magritte helpfully pointed out, ceci n'est pas une pipe. Well, no, it's not a pipe. Nor is it a tree - ceci n'est pas un arbre. It's just a drawing - a flat, 2d image meant to represent a tree. All the trees above are icons - they represent, only - they aren't really trees. :)

So why is it that your eyes and brain tell you that all these things are trees? They're clearly not very like trees at all - especially that first one which is just a bunch of scribbles. How do you know it's meant to mean "tree" ?

There are kinda two answers to that. The first is learned symbolism - a shorthand language everyone learns from childhood which behaves a bit like iconographic hieroglyphics - they mean precisely what they picture, although they are very simplified in order to create ease of communication. A very very simple icon is not far away from a letter.

The second answer is the fact that you've seen lots of trees in your life. Millions, probably. Trees of all shapes and sizes. However, you were taught to call all of them "tree", probably by your parents, and it was only later you learned that they also have more specific names depending on their type; "olive tree", "oak tree", "silver birch", etc. It's much much easier for your brain to store information about a tree if it doesn't need to know everything in order to know it's still a tree. You don't need to go up to the tree and inspect the bark, or the shape, or the leaves, in order to know that it's a tree. You just do. And nor do you need to store a vast wealth of information in your head about the tree to remember it. You just store an imprint, an icon - a very simplified tree. It's only an idea, not a real tree.

There's obviously, then, a set of things which makes a 'tree', and everyone seems to know these things subconsciously already. You already know what a tree is - you don't need to study one to know that.

But... and here's my point, and the best place for any artist to start. Do you really truly know what a tree is? Or do you just see this?

Image

...a symbol of a tree?

Learning to produce convincing art (and by convincing, I don't mean photo-realistic or even a good resemblance - what I mean is art that communicates information effectively) is about learning what is actually there, what you actually see. Because I bet it's not what you expect. Learning to see is the most important bit, and the most difficult (learning to teach your hands to reproduce what you see is relatively easy in comparison, and merely a matter of muscle memory, much like typing or playing the piano). In which case, the best place to begin is to forget absolutely everything you know about trees. All of it. Even the colour.

Then go find a tree, and draw it. Don't draw it as though you know what a tree is, draw it as if you've never seen a tree before in your entire life. Try drawing the shadows instead of the outlines - this will force you to look at shape and texture in a different way. You can also walk around your tree in order to understand how it works and why it is the way it is - how that thing you can half-see looks from another angle, which explains why it looks from where you're sitting. (Drawing from life is always much more useful than drawing from photographs, because it's more tactile and three-dimensional). Really observe what is there, and don't be afraid of drawing something that looks silly. Sometimes what is there is not what you expect at all, and if you want to produce convincing art, you need to understand what is really there, what shape it really is, rather than impose everything you think you know upon the tree. That might sometimes involve drawing lines or shapes you think look silly on your paper, only to realise that that's exactly how they are. And now, suddenly, it doesn't look silly - it looks right.

This applies to everything - all objects - not just trees. Not just objects either - people. Faces are one of the hardest things to draw for this very reason - we spend a LOT of time looking at them, and we have millions of ways of condensing the face into the icon (everything from the yellow smiley face to the cartoon to a renaissance painting).

So... as I mentioned in my previous post, all artists start out by drawing the tree they know - the icon-tree. This is because they haven't figured out yet that that information is usually inaccurate, faulty, or merely missing very large bits - it has to be, in order to compress it into a simplified icon.

Step two is drawing the tree you don't know - and this is where all artists should begin. Draw from life, all the time. Take a little sketchbook with you all the time and draw in it, everywhere you can, every time you have any sort of opportunity (except maybe places it would be rude, like funerals). And when you draw, try to understand what it is you're drawing and why it works. What shape is it really, when you get right down to it? Which bits are you doing wrong because your brain is basically lying to you, and condensing because it thinks it knows already?

Learning to see is pretty hard, but you get into a habit of it. I actually find it very hard to look at anything these days without doing exactly that - making mental notes of how the light falls on it, and why it does, and what shape it is, and what texture, and how it appears generally and specifically. After a while, you can't stop. :)

Third step is... marrying what you know with what you see, and mixing the two. It's best to know what is really there before you try and simplify, because by simplifying you're ommitting information - a mistake a lot of young cartoonists make is thinking that because it's simplier, it's easier. Without the groundwork of knowing the complex, you can't accurately simplify - what you draw will always be inaccurate and look 'wrong' for a reason you can't express.

...I'm not sure if, at this point, I'm being helpful... or if I'm just rambling on and probably repeating myself. But yeah, that's where I think every artist should begin - by forgetting everything they think they know, and humbly going to investigate an object for the first time.

A friend of mine once said:

I think for a long time, I assumed art education worked like middle school education. You go in knowing nothing; someone tells you a bunch of things, and you remember them, and suddenly you're good.

In reality, it's a lot like a sketchbook full of apples. Day 1 of art school you draw an apple. It's fuck-ugly. It looks more like a beach ball with a stick in. Every day, you draw the same exact apple. You have hundreds and hundreds of pages of apples. Flip to a random page - say, pages 26 and 27. The two apples look identical to each other and barely any improvement can be seen between the two days.

At the end of your art career, you pin up the first drawing and the last drawing, and you barely recognise your achievement until that moment.

I see it like this: some people are content with the first apple. They enjoy drawing apples and they think it's pretty good the way it is. Some people are only interested in the last apple - it's bright and colorful, with perfect shading and spectral lights and texture. But the one who's truly dedicated to his art, he's interested in the middle apples, the learning process, the mistakes and pitfalls and triumphs of learning how to be fantastic at your skill.

Joy can be gleaned from every second of your art career if you approach it with the right mindset. Everytime you make a mistake and someone points it out, it is a mistake you will never make again. You are a small percentage better with each apple. And learning how to master that apple helps you understand how to master an orange, a banana, a human face, a tractor, a spaceship or a cloud. You approach it carefully; you say, object, I'm going to draw you, and I'm going to know you inside and out, and you are going to sit there and take it, no matter how long this takes!


And despite the fact that I think I'll embarrass her, I'm going to recommend her advice as being completely true and wise.

Object, I'm going to draw you, and I'm going to know you inside and out, and you are going to sit there and take it, no matter how long it takes!

That is exactly how it is. It's the knowing that's important. Drawing is about seeing, and seeing is about knowing. Learning to draw is about learning to see, and know, what is really there - and to not allow your brain and eyes to fool you.

Sketchbook, life drawing. This is where everyone should begin. :) Go master those objects!
User avatar
Finley Ward
Retired staff
Posts: 1389
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:13 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Finley Ward »

There are also tons of exercises you can do in order to improve your 'looking' abilities. Drawing when drunk is a good one - because it forces you to stop analysing every line you draw, and just do it, instinctively. It cuts out the 'overthinking' problem.

Drawing blindfolded is another good one - it forces you to 'look' with your fingers at an object (ideally, have someone else choose objects for you that you've never seen before, ever, like obscure car parts) and thus understand it in a new way. You can't impose any iconic ideas on an object if you can't see it, and don't know what it is. You can actually produce some very interesting drawings this way - since you can't see what you're drawing! But they are useful, because you're learning about looking most of all.

Draw things you've never drawn before. Things which don't have good icons. It's hard to find things like this, but they do exist. So, don't draw people or trees or faces or cups or apples - draw coral and mould and litter and deep sea fish and carburetters. Draw the shapes of people moving quickly, or the way a shadow falls over a pavement. Draw the tops of people's heads from a high place, or draw your lunch. All these things are going to train your eyes to see, and your hands to translate, and will remove the obstacle of trying to avoid icons. It's easier to see what's really there if it's something you don't often look at or think about or turn into an icon.

Most of all, enjoy it! ;) It should always be fun!
Last edited by Finley Ward on Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kaelara Mentahn
Shopkeeper
Posts: 334
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:12 pm
Location: USA

Post by Kaelara Mentahn »

Thanks for sharing your insight, that vast process of how someone thinks about drawing is something I think gives me a place to start.

As to seeing things... I never put it into words before, but come to think of it, there are a lot of things in life that are relegated to 'icons' and our expectations of how they look, when a second's deeper glance reveals an amazing breadth of complexity you never noticed before.

Now if only I can practice dragging my sketch book everywhere, hehe...

*Shuffles off to think...*
Avatar courtesy of www.allavatars.com - Electra
User avatar
Finley Ward
Retired staff
Posts: 1389
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:13 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Finley Ward »

Yelena:

Image

Did this tonight, 'cause I felt in a painting mood and avatars usually don't take very long. I intend to do more tomorrow - would do more tonight, but it's getting late already.
Maeve
The Dragon & Game Designer
Posts: 15536
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:29 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Post by Maeve »

Love the detailing on the mouth!
[i][b][color=orange][size=92]Smile and carry a big stick.[/color][/b][/i][/size]
User avatar
Finley Ward
Retired staff
Posts: 1389
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:13 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Finley Ward »

Thrandil

Image

(Man, lots of elfy folks about, ain't there? :P )
Ly Binh Hue
Civus
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:07 am

Post by Ly Binh Hue »

Woo Thrandil finally got an avatar! I really appreciate that you don't just draw people head on, you give them slouchy or casual poses and facial expressions. I simply cannot draw realistic faces..but I never practice, so it's my own fault. XD
[size=84]"We cannot see our reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see." -- Taoist proverb

[url=https://tazlure.nl/board/viewtopic.php?t=15174]Hue artwork[/url][/size]
User avatar
Finley Ward
Retired staff
Posts: 1389
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:13 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Finley Ward »

Elvira...

Image
Elvira Rodriguez
Civus
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:02 pm
Location: Stormy seas

Post by Elvira Rodriguez »

*gushes and hugs both the avatar and the author* She is perfect. Simply adorable. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I loooooove the smile. So her. You deserve a big box of candy for this. Real big.
Last edited by Elvira Rodriguez on Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Oooooh, is that your money pouch, or have I just landed meself a husband there, luv.
Avatar by the adorable [url=http://pixieface.deviantart.com]Pixieface[/url]
Maeve
The Dragon & Game Designer
Posts: 15536
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:29 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Post by Maeve »

I love the cleavage best!
[i][b][color=orange][size=92]Smile and carry a big stick.[/color][/b][/i][/size]
Post Reply

Return to “Drawing Bard”